When I got online this afternoon, I saw that “Lester” left 2 comments on the fuzzypinkslippers.com Facebook page about the Op-Ed by Marc E. Angelucci on the conference in Detroit. My response to his two postings got to be a little wordy, so I thought that I would post it here.
Hi. You don’t know me, but you decided to share your link on my Facebook page for my blog. Perhaps you thought that this would enlighten me or sway me to your side of this discussion. It won’t.
I don’t like MRAs and I have a very good reason for this. You see, despite what the movement claims, no actions are really taking place within it to improve the lives and rights of men. Most of what goes on is bashing of women, declaring us to be misandrists; telling male feminists that they’re playing for the wrong team or that they are emasculating themselves. Basically, a lot of bullying and very little actual activism, which sucks because there are a lot of issues that impact men that deserve to be advocated for.
In the Op-Ed, Angelucci suggested that people who paint MRAs in a negative light were ignorant. I can assure you that this is not true. In a lot of cases the people who criticize the movement are actually very aware of what has been said and what has been done. When MRAs are called misogynists, it’s because they are. When Chris Brown attempted to kill Rihanna and she decided to file charges against him, it was the National Coalition for Men (which Angelucci states he is the Vice President of) that decided that it should criticize Rihanna for speaking up against Brown. It was also the National Coalition Men that declared that their support would go to a GOP backed version of Violence Against Women Act, which would have empowered abusers not victims. H.R. 4970 was not only anti-women, it was also homophobic and would have denied rights to gay males who were victims of domestic and sexual violence. The Senate version of the bill (S. 1925) would have protected all victims of domestic violence. This makes his group hypocritical with regard to concern for the rights of all men.
Now, with regard to the actual conference, I refuse to change my opinion on a conference that has speakers who have advocated or been apologists for abuse.
“When I get my most glowing positive cases, 6 out of 200, the incest is part of the family’s open, sensual style of life, wherein sex is an outgrowth of warmth and affection. It is more likely that the father has good sex with his wife, and his wife is likely to know and approve — and in one or two cases to join in.”
“First, because millions of people who are now refraining from touching, holding, and genitally caressing their children, when that is really a part of a caring, loving expression, are repressing the sexuality of a lot of children and themselves. Maybe this needs repressing, and maybe it doesn’t. My book should at least begin the exploration, Partial scan of the issue.
“Second, I’m finding that thousands of people in therapy for incest are being told, in essence , that their lives have been ruined by incest. In fact, their lives have not generally been affected as much by the incest as by the overall atmosphere. My book should help therapists put incest in perspective.”
“The average incest participant can’t evaluate his or her experience for what it was. As soon as society gets into the picture, they have to tell themselves it was bad. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.”
“Incest is like a magnifying glass, in some circumstances it magnifies the beauty of a relationship, and it others it magnifies the trauma.”
“Most women’s ideal is to not be sexual until nine conditions are met: physical attraction; respect; emotional compatibility; intelligence; singleness; success (or potential ); being asked out; being paid for; and the man risking rejection by initiating the first kiss…. Men want sex as long as only one condition is met—physical attraction.”
“In San Diego there is a highly popular course called How to Marry Money. Note that the marriage is to money–not to a person. I inquired about the percentage of men attending… ‘The course is really for women,’ [the instructor replied,] ‘it’s not relevant to men.'”
“When men give lines, women learn to not trust men. When women wear makeup, men learn to not trust women. Male lines and female makeup are divorce training.”
“When divorces meant marriage no longer provided security for a lifetime, women adjusted by focusing on careers as empowerment. But when the sacrifice of a career met the sacrifices in a career, the fantasy of a career became the reality of trade-offs. Women developed career ambivalence.”
“From the male perspective, when commitment is associated with diamonds and mortgages, promises of love can feel like promises of payment.”
“When women are at the height of their beauty power and exercise it, we call it marriage. When men are at the height of their success power and exercise it, we call it a mid-life crisis.”
“We have forgotten that before we began calling this date rape and date fraud, we called it exciting.”
“Women attempt suicide more often because they want to become the priority of those they love rather than always prioritizing them.”
“Unemployment to a man is the psychological equivalent of rape to a woman.”
“Minimizing the role of sexual attraction in rape denies our responsibility for reinforcing men’s addiction to female sexual beauty and then depriving men of what we’ve helped addict them to.”
“Feminism has taught women to sue men for sexual harassment or date rape when men initiate with the wrong person or with the wrong timing; no one has taught men to sue women for sexual trauma for saying “yes,” then “no,” then “yes.” … Men [are] still expected to initiate, but now, if they [do] it badly, they could go to jail.”
“Evenings of paying to be rejected can feel like a male version of date rape.”
“The reporting of depression is often associated with the dependency of women on men. But it is dependency on men successful enough to allow a woman the time to think about more than survival. Which is why, when we think about women who report depression, we think of middle-class women, not working-class women. The working-class woman is too worried about survival to report depression. Depression is a diagnosis that tends to increase among those with the luxury of worrying about something other than survival. The more a person is in Stage II, the more that person can afford to focus on depression.”
“A man being sued after a woman has more sex than intended is like Lay’s being sued after someone has more potato chips than intended. In brief, date rape can be a crime, a misunderstanding, or buyer’s remorse.”
“If a man ignoring a woman’s verbal “no” is committing date rape, then a woman who says “no” with her verbal language but “yes” with her body language is committing date fraud. And a woman who continues to be sexual even after she says “no” is committing date lying.”
“We often hear, “Rape is rape, right?” No. A stranger forcing himself on a woman at knife point is different from a man and woman having sex while drunk and having regrets the morning. What is different? When a woman agrees to a date, she does not make a choice to be sexual, but she does make a choice to explore sexual possibilities. The woman makes no such choice with a stranger or an acquaintance.”
“Spousal rape legislation is blackmail waiting to happen.”
“By starving our children of men, we have made them more vulnerable to the very abuse we are trying to prevent.”
“Given that history, you might think I would be pleased to learn the Government is looking closely at the issue of domestic violence, and is launching a consultation on whether the definition of domestic violence should be widened to include emotional bullying and ‘coercive control’. But I’m afraid quite the opposite is true: I’m horrified.
“The Home Secretary Theresa May says: ‘Coercive control is a complex pattern of abuse using power and psychological control over another — financial control, verbal abuse, forced social isolation. These incidents may vary in seriousness and may be repeated over time.’
“In other words, she believes that in the eyes of the law it should no longer be only physical violence which constitutes domestic abuse.”
“Domineering, bullying husbands who shout at their wives but never lift a finger to hurt them would find themselves in court.”
“To me, the definition of domestic violence is quite clear: if you are not in fear of your life, you are not suffering it. In all other cases, where the aggression takes only an emotional form, or a few coffee cups have been chucked around, women in modern Britain thankfully have the option of finding a lawyer and choosing to separate from their husbands if they wish to do so.”
And those are just the first two speakers1 that are listed. But with those two speakers alone what do we have? Incest apologism. Objectification of women and viewing women as prostitutes. Date rape apologism. Equating rape and unemployment, which is beyond repulsive. Classism. Ableism. Support of allowing spousal rape to continue. Blaming women’s rights for child abuse. Suggesting that emotional abuse isn’t really all that bad.
I’m wondering how it is that you support or defend these people. How can you support a movement that claims to help men, but spends most of its time suggesting that abused persons weren’t actually abused? How can you support a movement that denies the reality that 99% of rapes are committed by men? How can you support a movement that blames victims for their rapes? How can you support a movement that mocks and ridicules people who have PTSD or Borderline Personality Disorder or other psychological issues stemming from traumas they have suffered? How do you support a movement that objectifies women, treating them as little more than sex toys, while simultaneously accusing women of either being too slutty for “Nice Guys” or of putting “Nice Guys” in the “friend zone”? Before you regale me with the sob story of how your movement is so misunderstood, maybe you should explain why you can support such a lying and bigoted movement in the first place. Better yet, save us both time and just walk away.
By the way, I’m guessing that you are a troll since you had to create a Facebook page just to spam my Facebook page for this site. It’s not all that shocking since I’ve encountered other troll-like MRA accounts that exist on Twitter for the sole purpose of deriding feminism.
Other speakers: Robert Franklin, Esq., Dr. Miles Groth, Barbara Kay, Karen Straughan, Carnell Smith, Paul Elam, Sen. Anne Cools, Dr. Paul Nathanson, Dr. Tara Palmatier, Psy.D., Tom Golden, LCSW, Vladek Filler. ↩